The lawsuit does not specify the amount in compensatory and punitive damages sought. There was no time for what law enforcement alleges happened to have happened, Lacy said. In this new version of events, however, the deputy said he attempted to feel her pulse through her wrist instead of through the carotid artery in her neck, as their training dictates, Lacy said. Sheriffs spokesperson Raquel Zick said the department could not comment on pending litigation. It is our position his shooting and death was not the function of lawful police activity, he said. Site design and development byHop StudiosHop Studios, They contend Cameron Ely presented no threat when he was gunned down by deputies, and that he and Valerie Ely were denied timely medical attention. The Ely family has filed a civil rights lawsuit against Santa Barbara County, the Sheriffs Office and the four deputies involved who shot and killed Cameron. Moreover, Lacy said, the few brief moments in the tape between when the deputies first approach Cameron and the explosion of gunfire erupts simply dont allow for that supposed series of events orders given, Cameron complying, Cameron then saying he has a gun, Cameron then not complying, deputies restating their orders to have occurred. After getting married to Valerie, Ron took a break from acting to focus on raising their children. The attorneys said 15 shots were fired from the rear into Camerons back, which they said came while he was on the ground and while he was not a threat to law enforcement. More so, they dragged a familys name and reputation through the mud when they knew their deputies and their detectives screwed up. | Credit: Daniel Dreifuss, Even if the deputies had good reason to believe Cameron had murdered his mother, Burris went on, they werent legally allowed to shoot him if he didnt pose an immediate threat to their lives. Unlike the plaintiffs attorneys in this case, the Santa Barbara County Sheriffs Office and the County of Santa Barbara takes seriously our professional obligation to avoid undue pretrial publicity about this matter since it is currently in litigation, he said. Whoops! Use this page here to login for your Independent subscription. She added that Cameron was a source of strength for the family during times of need and expressed sorrow that his life was tragically cut short at the age of 30. Plaintiffs, vs. COUNTY OF SANTA BARBARA, a municipal corporation; DESIREE THOME, individually and in her official capacity as a sergeant for the Santa Barbara County Sheriff's Department; JEREMY ROGERS, individually and in his official Sign Up for the A.M. Report Defendant deputies did not ask any questions of decedent Cameron, nor did they announce that they were members of the Santa Barbara Sheriffs Department . The biomechanical illustration showed details such as the allegedbullet trajectory. This website uses cookies to improve your experience. Cameron Ely, 30, was shot dead by officers on Tuesday after . Success! Microphones dont work that way, he said. events.} RHS, aren't you a piece of work:) Why do you believe this family is not sincere? It is important to remember that the plaintiffs attorneys allegations are just that allegations, not facts. The Ely family has not been in contact with the Sheriffs Office since Oct. 29, 2019 some two weeks after the shooting, Kirsten said. Near impossible to stab someone many times and not have that evidence. Keep up with Noozhawk's daily news coverage, delivered at 4:15 a.m. right to your inbox. A spokesperson with the Santa Barbara County Sheriffs Office (SBCSO) tells PEOPLE that officers responded to a 911 call placed at the Elys home at 8:15 p.m. on Tuesday. The second killing, in 2012. You cant pick up one thing and not something else from a few feet away. The shooting occurred when Cameron and the deputies were standing within 10-12 feet of each other, Lacy said. Follow Loading Kirsten. Favourite items 6 items Favourite shops 1 shop found Favourite items . Were hoping that we will be able to work with the District Attorneys Office and the city Attorneys Office to get the justice that this family so deserves., When reached for comment, District Attorney Joyce Dudley referred to her offices report, published Oct. 5. It was only when they obtained the recording through their civil complaint did they realize their instincts were correct. When you visit this site, it may store or retrieve information on your browser, mostly in the form of cookies. It came from a knife lodged in Valeries chest she was found in the homes dining room and revealed a combination of Valerie and Camerons DNA. In a statement issued Thursday afternoon, Sheriff Bill Brown went after the Elys and their attorneys for staging the press event while their lawsuit is still pending. However, we have a great matter of certainty these are actually the trajectory of the wounds, given what the DA (District Attorneys Office) has reported and what the coroner has reported in the autopsy report.. Nothing was done after he was engaged in two arguably unlawful shootings and a tragic collision, he said. Defendant deputies are heard instructing decedent Cameron to keep his hands up, according to the lawsuit. You cant summarily execute someone because you think they committed a crime, he said. Now I do have to admit that I briefly went to school with Kirsten Ely, one half of the Elysium Ely duo, but that didn't make my expectations of service any lower. Copyright 2023 Santa Barbara Independent, Inc. Reproduction of material from any Independent.com pages without written permission is strictly prohibited. Cookies collect information about your preferences and your device and are used to make the site work as you expect it to, to understand how you interact with the site, and to show advertisements that are targeted to your interests. Stop with the mis-truths & exaggeration - its not an epidemic. Noozhawk is a founding member of theLocal Independent Online News (LION) Publishers. You cant summarily execute someone because you think they committed a crime, he said. Loading Simulated Diamond Eternity Band Round 5x5mm Fabulous Engagement BAND Ring Exquisite RING FULL Of Stone Ring Victorian Style S925 w 18KGP . She was also a former flight attendant and even won Miss Airlines International, a beauty pageant for flight attendants and other airline employees, in 1980, according to The Miami News. Neither authorities nor the family has provided a clear motive for Valeries murder, though a coroners report noted Cameron, a Harvard graduate who reportedly suffered from mental health problems and was living with his parents, had been acting erratically and aggressively in the days prior. We're so close to reaching our Spring Campaign goal! Sheriff Bill Brownreleasedthe following statement in response to the press conference: Unlike the plaintiffs attorneys in this case, the Santa Barbara County Sheriffs Office and the county of Santa Barbara takeseriously our professional obligation to avoid undue pretrial publicity about this matter since it is currently in litigation. I knew Cameron. Opening arguments are scheduled to begin February 22, 2022, in federal court in Los Angeles. Deputy Rogers, during the course of his law enforcement duties, also allegedly caused a fatal car crash. It is important to remember that the plaintiffs attorneys allegations are just that allegations, not facts. They claim the deputies lied in their statements to investigators, and they point to multiple audio recordings of the incident that contradict the deputies version of events. Connect with Noozhawk on Facebook. Subscribe View profile. Moreover, Lacy said, the few brief moments in the tape between when the deputies first approach Cameron and the explosion of gunfire erupts simply dont allow for that supposed series of events orders given, Cameron complying, Cameron then saying he has a gun, Cameron then not complying, deputies restating their orders to have occurred. She has been with the brand for five years, beginning her time as a digital news writer, where she covered everything from entertainment news to crime stories and royal tours. The lawsuit remains in the discovery phase and no hearing dates have been scheduled. Ron, 81, who is best known for his titular role in the 1960s Tarzan television series, was home at the time of the incident but had trouble communicating with officers because of a medical condition that impeded his speech, authorities said according to KTLA. Ely's lawyer, DeWitt Lacy of Los Angeles, says it's a civil rights case arising from the still murky circumstances surrounding the deaths of Valerie Lundeen Ely, 62, and Cameron Ely, 30, on. I'm a little bit country with sweet SoCal charm;) Mental illness is a serious issue in society today. The freshest news in Santa Barbara County. Even if she'd expired by the time they arrived, the decent and right thing to do would have been to properly determine that was so. The ensuing lawsuit for breach of protocol and reckless behavior was settled for $4.8 million (your money). Each of the four deputies, for example, gave differing accounts of Camerons actions in the seconds leading up to the shooting, Lacy said. DeWitt M. Lacy, a civil rights attorney with the Law Offices of John L. Burris, which is representing the Ely family, shows the Evidence Rooms digital reconstruction of the shooing of Cameron Ely at a press conference in front of the Ely family home in Hope Ranch on Thursday. The county may have bungled its opportunity to find another suspect in this case, Lacy said. Kirsten Ely embraced her sister in a hug onThursday afternoon. The company provides scene reconstruction services, including 3D modeling andforensic animationto be used as legal or forensic demonstrative evidence at trial, the Evidence Rooms website states. You cant pick up one thing and not something else from a few feet away. The shooting occurred when Cameron and the deputies were standing within 10-12 feet of each other, Lacy said. Kaitland Ely, Valerie Ely, Kirsten . One year to the day after their brother Cameron Ely the son of Tarzan actor Ron Ely was shot 22 times by Santa Barbara Sheriff's deputies, Kirsten Ely and Kaitland Ely Sweet and their attorneys held a tearful news conference in the driveway of the family's Hope Ranch home to rebuke a new report by the District Attorney's Office that ruled the shooting a justifiable homicide. Ron also did not suffer any injuries but was taken to the hospital as a precaution. Meaning derived from the above: Only if this case goes to trial can we hope for any kind of public accountability. We know about one company registered at this address Kiki E LLC. A very dead suspect. The woman who was fatally stabbed inside actor Ron Elys Santa Barbara home has been identified as his wife Valerie Lundeen Ely, authorities confirmed on Wednesday. Ron Ely himself may know the answer, but after suffering a stroke several months prior to the incident, he is uncommunicative (he cannot speak), and he suffers from cognitive issues. One year after the deaths of Valerie and Cameron Ely, members of the Ely family were joined by their attorneys at their Hope Ranch estate on Thursday calling for the District Attorneys Office to revisit its investigation that cleared the Santa Barbara County Sheriffs deputies involved. Our view is we ought not accept their official position without some corroboration, and there is no corroboration whatsoever, he said. Success! They described Cameron as an athlete, a. We haven't been made privy to details like the forensics - was Valerie's blood on Cameron? Records show that Kirsten has one phone number, (719) 362-7698 (Bandwidth Com Clec, LLC) Santa Barbara News-Press / Ampersand Publishing, LLC unless otherwise specified. Urges Public to Listen to Audio Recording to Know the Truth. 2023 - All Rights Reserved. He will always be remembered by me as a nice kid. The company is a California Limited-Liability Company - Ca, which was filed on May 12, 2011. "The county is not going to fess up," said family attorney DeWitt Lacy, a prominent civil rights lawyer who specializes in police misconduct cases. Is there something we should see or hear in the video? Listening to the audio only takes 19 seconds, and then you will know the truth, too.. It lay next to a pool of blood on the outside tennis court. In his federal lawsuit against the Santa Barbara County Sheriff's Department, Ely claimed the deadly fight at his home last October began with his son calling 911 when the aging actor was. Based on a transcript of a video recording provided by the Ely familysattorneys, Its pretty clear that even though there were a lot of statements made by the police there is no statement at all, none, where Cameron (Ely) saidhe had a gun, Burris said. You truly do not make a lot of sense. or law enforcement. 3,485 following. If they brought it up, it would not be helpful to their case. The Santa Barbara District Attorneys Office previously ruled the shooting a justifiable homicide and said the deputies followed proper procedure in responding to Valerie. In defense of the threat posed by the suspect, several deputies fired their service weapons at the suspect, fatally wounding him.. Cameron, it later transpired, had himself been stabbed and deputies presumably believed the blood from his wounds belonged to Valerie. that embraces oscar wilde's motto: "you can never be . Scott Roder, a forensic specialist working with Lacys team, said Dudleys attempt to explain away the missing sound as a technical issue just doesnt make sense. {"requests":{"event":"https:\/\/www.noozhawk.com\/wp-content\/plugins\/newspack-popups\/includes\/..\/api\/campaigns\/index.php"},"triggers":{"trackPageview":{"on":"visible","request":"event","visibilitySpec":{"selector":"#c9f7","visiblePercentageMin":50,"totalTimeMin":250,"continuousTimeMin":100},"extraUrlParams":{"popup_id":"id_234460","cid":"CLIENT_ID(newspack-cid)"}},"formSubmitSuccess":{"on":"amp-form-submit-success","request":"event","selector":"#c9f7 .wp-block-jetpack-mailchimp form","extraUrlParams":{"popup_id":"id_234460","cid":"CLIENT_ID(newspack-cid)","mailing_list_status":"subscribed","email":"${formFields[email]}","esp":"mailchimp"}}}} Certainly, its a devastating wound, but one that someone can live from if they receive the appropriate medical aid.. Mr. Burris did not discuss the criminal components of the investigation that claim that Cameron stabbed his mother to death, but rather focused on the deception of Cameron that suggested he was lawfully killed by authorities. The county is not going to fess up, said family attorney DeWitt Lacy, a prominent civil rights lawyer who specializes in police misconduct cases. Follow Noozhawk on Twitter: @noozhawk, @NoozhawkNews and @NoozhawkBiz. For too long, Lacy declared, unlawful police killings have only been considered a problem for black and brown communities. Please reload the page and try again. Click "Accept" to agree and continue. She graduated from Ithaca College with a Bachelor's degree in Television-Radio (and an appearance in the NCAA Women's Volleyball Final Four!). Attorney DeWitt Lacy, a well-known Los Angeles litigator who specializes in police misconduct cases, played the audio recording for members of the media. One year to the day after their brother Cameron Ely the son ofTarzanactor Ron Ely was shot 22 times by Santa Barbara Sheriffs deputies, Kirsten Ely and Kaitland Ely Sweet and their attorneys held a tearful news conference in the driveway of the familys Hope Ranch home to forcefully rebukea new report by the District Attorneys Officethat ruled the shooting a justifiable homicide. I have a hard time watching this family. Class of 2010 Studied English language at University of Southern California Class of 2006 High school No schools to show This story was originally published by theSanta Barbara Independentand is reproduced here in partnership with Edhat. to stop telling everyone that Cameron killed his mother.. That's exactly the point. Wow! They stepped over her as if she wasnt there, he said. Click "Accept" to agree and continue. Then again, this is a symptom of people truly in the grip of TDS, ignorance, or both. Deputies attempted to gain verbal control of the suspect; however, he presented a threat to them. Kaitland referred to her late mother as her best friend and is heartbroken that she will not be able to hold her newest granddaughter named in her honor. Burris theorized one deputy may have been spooked by some movement of Camerons and squeezed off a round, creating a chain reaction of gunfire among the others in a phenomenon known as a sympathetic shooting., Lacy further discussed during the hour-long news conference how deputies allegedly ignored their own training and protocols when they failed to help Valerie upon arriving at the house. Wiping away tears as they stood Thursdayin front of their family home in Hope Ranch, actor Ron Elys two daughters condemned what they say was theunjustified use of deadly force and denial of medical care that contributed to the deaths of their mother and brother. Noozhawk staff writer Brooke Holland can be reached at bholland@noozhawk.com. She went on to compete at the Miss USA beauty pageant later that year but did not win. as that was the first time I was in town from Chicago and able to show her our venue (a private estate). In a statement issued Thursday afternoon, Sheriff Bill Brown went after the Elys and their attorneys for staging the press event while their lawsuit is still pending. He said the issues of police brutality are an American issue and not just limited to race, and that people need to join together and create change. View Kirsten Ely results including current phone number, address, relatives, background check report, and property record with Whitepages. This passion project has now garnered over 2.5. They waited a year in agonizing confusion for some kind of update on the investigation. She deserved SO MUCH better from the SBSO. Valeries most serious stab injury was to one of her lungs, Lacy said. If you want to submit your deal, add this product to your cart and complete the checkout process. design. What the evidence is indicating is that they have not been truthful in their dissertation of the shooting events that night, he said. Scott Roder, a forensic specialist working with Lacys team, said Dudleys attempt to explain away the missing sound as a technical issue just doesnt make sense. More than anything, said Mr. Lacy, the family wants the D.A. In a blog entry from 2010, Kirsten, 34, wrote about everything she has learned in 25 years, including how she approaches her relationship with her parents. The Ely sisters said they cant help wonder if their mother could have been saved if the deputies had intervened sooner. Supervisors ponder how to keep the bloat afloat! As we grieved our mother and brother over the past year, we were unable to pick up the pieces due to the intentional deception, ineptitude, and disregard for human life demonstrated by the Santa Barbara Sheriffs Department and the conspiratorial obstruction of truth and outright lies put into print by the Santa Barbara DAs Office, said Kirsten as she trembled and read from prepared remarks. Two other individuals have been found with links to this address: Erick L Bishop and Jennifer Lee Ely. As we grieved our mother and brother over the past year, we were unable to pick up the pieces due to the intentional deception, ineptitude, and disregard for human life demonstrated by the Santa Barbara Sheriffs Department and the conspiratorial obstruction of truth and outright lies put into print by the Santa Barbara DAs Office, read Kirsten from a prepared statement. What is the families "special cause" you refer to? We just needed someone to try., The fact that one of the involved deputies Deputy Jeremy Rogers was part of two other fatal shootings and a wrong-way car accident that, in total, claimed four lives and cost Santa Barbara taxpayers $4.8 million in lawsuits also gives Lacy serious cause for concern. It was filed inSeptemberon Ron Elys behalf by his daughter, Kirsten Ely. There is a ton of evidence that Cameron did not do it. Mr. Lacy said that because the Coroners Bureau did not appropriately probe the trajectory of the bullet wounds that the illustration cannot be 100% certain.. The Investigator emailed Raquel Zick, the Santa Barbara County Sheriffs Office public information officer, and ccd Sheriff Bill Brown, requesting their side of the story. the estate is owned by Kaitland H Ely and Kirsten C Ely Ron Ely's . Its utterly unbelievable.. In addition, while the deputies initially stated that none of them ever checked Valeries pulse or attempted to render any medical aid, it was revealed during depositions that one deputy changed his story, claiming to have quickly checked on Valerie before moving on to search the house. The Elys claim the deputies then lied to investigators, and that the District Attorneys Office is now complicit in the alleged cover-up. In her current role, Joelle helps oversee all things TV, and enjoys being able to say she has to watch The Kardashians, America's Got Talent, Love Is Blind and Dancing with the Stars for her "work" responsibilities. Robert Eringer is a longtime Montecito author with vast experience in investigative journalism. Accept Read More, Trial date approaches for suit over Cameron Elys death, Santa Barbara Earth Day Festival ready to wow, Biden kicks off campaign at polling low point, Natural history museum celebrates 23 years with gala, Santa Barbara County officially ends COVID-19 state of, California, Los Angeles County ending coronavirus emergency declarations, FBI confirms COVID-19 likely came from Wuhan lab, Pritzkers latest orders relax some COVID testing, mask, ELECTION 2022: Stoker concedes Assembly race, ELECTION 2022: Clark grateful to supporters after victory, ELECTION 2022: Democrats retain Senate, pushed to 50, ELECTION 2022: Alaskas U.S. Senate seat will likely, Democrats call Justice Thomas an impure jurist, Proposed tax on short-term rentals is a bad. We are not looking for a settlement. Support theIndependentby making adirect contributionor with asubscription to Indy+. With her sister, Kirsten, looking on, Kaitland Ely, left, reads a note to her mother, Valerie, and brother, Cameron, during a news conference in October 2020 at the Ely family's Hope Ranch estate in Santa Barbara. . Trying to accommodate Deputy Rogers cruiser, which was allegedly going too slow, a driver, who had three passengers in his own vehicle, swerved and drove head-on into the wrong-way driver coming the other way. Valeries most serious stab injury was to one of her lungs, Lacy said. Santa Barbara News-Press / Ampersand Publishing, LLC unless otherwise specified. We also reached out three times to Mary Pat Barry, the counsel who represents Santa Barbara County. Certainly, its a devastating wound, but one that someone can live from if they receive the appropriate medical aid.. Copyright 2023 Santa Barbara Independent, Inc. Reproduction of material from any Independent.com pages without written permission is strictly prohibited. You're on the list. They emptied Elys pockets to check for weapons and found none. This was not heard in the audio tape even though all other voices are heard. Shooting Victims Identified as Girl Who Was 'the Next Gabby Douglas' and Woman Out for a Drive, All About Eddie Van Halen and Valerie Bertinelli's Son Wolfgang Van Halen, 7 People Killed in Half Moon Bay in California's Second Mass Shooting This Week: 'Our Hearts Are Broken', Uber Driver Fatally Stabbed by Passenger in New Orleans, Suspect Allegedly Confessed to Attack, Idaho Murders Timeline: Everything to Know About the Case, Alec Baldwin to Face Involuntary Manslaughter Charges in'Rust'Shooting Death of Halyna Hutchins, Who Is Brittany Bell? Ron Ely and his family are contesting the findings ofthe Santa Barbara County District Attorneys Office, which ruled that the fatal shooting of Cameron Ely by sheriffs deputieslast yearwas a justifiable homicide. No medical assistance. Kaitland Ely Welcome to the world through my "Sweet Southern California" bright eyes. Speaking to reporters, Burris said, Our view here is not necessarily about dealing with the criminal components, but we are very much concerned about the depiction of Cameron (Ely), and suggesting that he was lawfully killed by the police. Discrepancies have been noted about the Coban audio recording, with the District Attorneys Office claiming there was a technical issue that resulted in a mic not picking up any audio from Cameron. Eight slugs through the windshield. Someone else was there., This was a terrible failure of basic evidence evaluation, Lacy went on, noting hes received no explanation why the Sheriffs Office only tested one sample and not the 13 others, or why the department hasnt run the DNA of the third person through a criminal database to identify its source. Your mom really can be your best friend. An autopsy of both Valerie and Cameron is pending. Kaitland Ely-Sweet then said the deaths of her brother and mother were preventable, which makes the pain even deeper.. The wrongful-death lawsuit filed by the Ely family against the County of Santa Barbara and the Sheriff's Office is likely headed to trial after a year of closed-door negotiations failed to result in a settlement agreement. Santa Barbara Revels May Day Celebration! This is the exclusive $4.8 million mansion in Santa Barbara where the wife of Tarzan star Ron Ely was stabbed to death by their son. The lawsuit alleges that dashboard camera video from the deputies patrol car backs their case. Kirsten Ely 1. Please reload the page and try again. OVER firing too, the police all over our nation are trigger-happy and itching to shoot. The Ely family had condemned the district attorneys report that found the fatal shooting of Cameron a justifiable homicide. Sign Up Now 483 posts. They stepped over her as if she wasnt there, he said. Really hoping these women get some sort of closure . Rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6, and they are only rarely judged by 12. Besides their son Cameron, Ron and Valerie, who wed in 1984, shared two daughters, Kirsten and Kaitland. He also starred in the iconic Seventies show Fantasy Island and the 1975 film Doc Savage: The Man of Iron and Bronze. His behavior was allowed to continue. A mediation in the Ely case last month failed to produce a settlement, and, consequently, a trial is scheduled to begin on Feb. 22 in the federal District Court in Los Angeles. | Credit: Daniel Dreifuss. View FREE Public Profile & Reputation for Kirsten Ely in Santa Barbara, CA - See Court Records | Photos | Address, Emails & Phone Number | Personal Review | $250K+ Income & Net Worth. We have preliminary work here showing that he was shot in the front and the back, multiple times. Santa Barbara, California. Thank you for making the world a better place Thank you for being you:) I love you forever and a day!, In another post, Kaitland said of Valerie, She shines daily:) I am so lucky to have her I love her more than air!. It was only when they obtained the recording through their civil complaint did they realize their instincts were correct. In reality, they are a great family and wonderful neighbors and requiring a lifetime of service to your particular political cause just so they can attain justice for their murdered son is just asinine. One claimed Cameron, 30, had laid on the ground and thrashed about like a child having a tantrum. Another said he got prone but then suddenly did some jiu-jitsu move and sprang to his feet. Processing I'm pro law enforcement but it appears the Ely's may have a case due to the manner (reported up to this time) in which this call was handled. On the evening of Oct 15, 2019, Santa Barbara County sheriffs deputies answered a call and rolled up to Tarzan star Ron Elys home on Mariposa Drive in Hope Ranch after being summoned and dispatched to keep the peace. The shooting itself was unjustified, Burris said. Losing two of the greatest loves of our lives in one night shattered us, Kirsten Ely said at apress conferenceon the one-year anniversary of the deaths ofValerie Lundeen Ely and Cameron Ely. We will fight in honor and preserve your legacy of light, love and truth.. Thank you for blessing me with endless love and support. Actor Ron Elys Daughters Reject DAs Findings in Officer-Involved Shooting of Brother, Click to share on Twitter (Opens in new window), Click to share on Facebook (Opens in new window), Click to email a link to a friend (Opens in new window), Kirsten Ely, the daughter of actor Ron Ely, wipes away tears while her sister, Kaitland Ely-Sweet, speaks at a press conference on the one-year anniversary of the deaths of their mother, Valerie Lundeen Ely, and brother, Cameron Ely. One of the more troubling aspects of this case is the involvement of Deputy Jeremy Rogers, one of the defendants. The pain our family has felt is so immense that we are constantly living in a nightmare that we cant wake up from, she said. Shes horrible and should move on and enjoy her lifelong collection of our tax dollars. Trew Knowledge. He illustrated how three of the main points made in the District Attorneys report to portray Cameron as a threat to the deputies that they ordered him to the ground, that he announced he had a gun, and that the deputies commanded him to remain on the ground when he reportedly started to lunge cannot be heard at all.
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